announcer: Funding for "The Hinckley Report" is made possible in part by the Cleone Peterson Eccles Endowment Fund.

Jason Perry: Tonight on "The Hinckley Report," the 2023 legislative session concludes with a record number of new laws passed.

What bills made it across the finish line and which issues are facing continued opposition?

And how did lawmakers spend the state's historic surplus?

Our expert panelists break down the consequential aftermath of the legislative session.

♪♪♪ Jason Perry: Good evening, and welcome to "The Hinckley Report."

I'm Jason Perry, director of the Hinckley Institute of Politics.

Covering the week we have Ben Winslow, reporter with Fox 13 News; Holly Richardson, editor of UtahPolicy.com; and Chris Bleak, partner with RRJ Consulting.

One week has passed since the legislative session ended; had a chance to rest, start talking about what happened during those 45 days.

It's interesting, Chris, we'll start with you, because we had a record number of bills passed.

It was 575, and for those watching, that beat the record by 1; 574 was the record before in 2019.

But this was also a session full of fairly significant legislation.

Chris Bleak: Yeah, I have--this was my 25th legislative session.

I think it was the most consequential, really, in the history of the state.

I've asked that of a number of people.

I say that with some regret, you and I having worked in a number of those sessions together up there, but the number of items that they dealt with that have consequence and significance that will last, I think, 5, 10, 15, 20 years is really significant and not to be underestimated.

And I say that as both bills that people really love and bills that people really have some concerns about.

But I think the consequence of it is really significant on the citizens of the state of Utah.

Jason Perry: Go ahead, Holly.

Holly Richardson: Well, I will just say that maybe the session where they gave women the right to vote, that was pretty consequential, but I agree with the--with the spending.

So, record levels of spending this year, and I think one of the things that the legislature did really well was to look forward down the road and say, okay, what generational investments can we make in water infrastructure and, you know, some of these things, transportation infrastructure, those types of things too, right?

It's not just what do we need for the next year, but what are we gonna be able to use, like you said, for the next 5, 10, 15 years.

Jason Perry: Ben, talk about some of those.

We'll get into the bills specifically, but sort of the high level, why the session was so consequential?

Ben Winslow: They had a ton of money to spend.

They had a lot of big issues to tackle.

You had everything from the Great Salt Lake to what Holly mentioned, transportation.

You have taxes, you know, how you're going to grow as a state; all of that was wrapped up into one session.

And I think the money was the biggest thing that came out of this, just the sheer volume of spending, a $29 billion budget.

It's the largest we've ever had.

Jason Perry: So big.

Chris, when we worked in state government, we were down, like, $13 billion, small amounts.

So many things were funded this legislative session that will have impact.

Talk about a couple of those.

All of you just kind of look at this big budget that was just passed, some of those consequential budget items.

Chris, what do you think?

Chris Bleak: Well, I think Ben mentions taxes, and it's hard to ignore that.

But what's amazing to me is the amount of money that they put aside continued in terms of managing the state well.

They put money aside to help pay down the road bonds that they've taken on the last couple of years, and put that in a way that it will help them pay down that debt and make some money in the arbitrage, but also making sure that they have money in case of a recession and some things along those lines.

Water, the amount of money that's put aside for infrastructure for water, helping to make sure that the Great Salt Lake continues to thrive was significant.

I'll mention another one, they put $45 million aside for active transportation, so connecting trails in with our system.

We've been talking about multimodal.

We did roads back in 2005, we added the TTIF for transit a few years ago, and now have added Active Transportation Fund.

The legislature, those involved, have talked what--they walked the walk of the talk they've been talking for the last year.

Jason Perry: And this is the Transportation Infrastructure Fund, right?

Chris Bleak: ATIF, the Active Transportation Investment Fund, exactly.

Jason Perry: Very good.

Ben, how about you?

Ben Winslow: I think a lot of the money towards agriculture optimization, which is gonna be huge when it comes to trying to save the Great Salt Lake, $200 million right there for this new technology that helps farmers grow crops with less water, that's going to be significant.

Yet another $200 million for commuter rail, trying to speed that up, like Chris had just mentioned about, you know, transportation.

Just a lot of issues, a lot of needs getting funded, but not everybody got what they wanted.

People got some of what they wanted, but they didn't get all of what they wanted, and some people still didn't get anything.

Jason Perry: So, talk about that, some of these big asks did not get funded in spite of-- Holly Richardson: Some people didn't get anything, but I do have to mention education was funded at a, I think, record amount again this year.

Jason Perry: Historic amount.

Holly Richardson: Historic, so not only do we have increasing teacher salary, but we've got increasing WPU again, and all of that, I think, is significant for this session.

One of the things that didn't get funded that I was personally a little bit sad about was Ray Ward's bill to take people off the DSPD waiting list.

Jason Perry: Which means?

Holly Richardson: So, Division of Services for People with Disabilities, and what his bill would do is to say, look, we're going to be able to take 200 people a year off this waiting list.

I have personal experience, I have a daughter who was on the list until she passed away.

She never got funded, it was 17 years, and he said the average wait time is now 25 years.

So, his bill would have taken 200 people off the year--off the waiting list every year by funding their needs.

Most of them are small, respite care, those types of things.

So, it passed all the way through the legislature without really any disagreement, but it wasn't funded in the final budget.

Jason Perry: Okay, let's talk about some of the bills that were consequential, but sort of flew under the radar.

Any of those bills that you are watching that are going to impact Utahns that we might not have seen as much in the press?

Chris Bleak: Well, I think one that needs to stand out, and Holly mentioned education funding, forgot All-Day K. I mean, something that they've been talking about for a number of years, and funded All-Day K, which is I think is a significant and consequential step forward for the citizens of the state.

But I want to mention one that I know that you worked on, Jason, I think is really significant, and that is the funding of moving Fort Douglas.

This is a historic military base that's served here in the foothills just outside of the University of Utah's boundaries, they're going to be moving to Camp Williams, and this is significant, not only for the growth of that base, but also for the growth of the university, for the opportunities that we have here, and really hitting the vision that President Randall has talked about in terms of turning this into a top public university in the United States, and I think that that helps towards that vision.

Jason Perry: Absolutely right.

Okay, anyone else?

Ben Winslow: Things that flew under the radar, I--the education funding, it got a lot of attention, but I think what the longer term is going to be significant there.

But I do think that the one thing that flew under the radar maybe for me was this Cottonwood Canyons transportation line item.

And, you know, people started wondering, is this gondola-lite or what are we doing here?

It looks like it's more of the phase-in approach, funding more busses, funding maybe some more transportation alternatives for that area.

Looks like, you know, this is one to watch to see where the money goes and what happens with it.

Jason Perry: Okay, let's watch and see what happens.

Let's get to that section of the show this evening, because some of these consequential bills have lawsuits already.

Some have them coming, and at least one has a referendum on the way.

Chris, I see you're wearing a Utah flag lapel pin.

Ben Winslow: We know where your loyalties lie.

Jason Perry: Let's talk about this.

Senator Dan McCay was on the program last week, talked about his bill that did pass, but we already have a referendum underway to take this--take this bill back.

Chris Bleak: Well, I am pro-flag.

I think it's a great step forward for the state of Utah.

I love the historic seal.

I love that they kept the historical flag and will find ways to fly that and honor those that--pay the dues on that and were involved in that.

But I also think that it's important that we step forward as a state, and the flag really is not that endearing.

I mean, nobody flies it.

I was driving in this morning and already saw that the new state flag flying on a couple of houses as I was driving in.

I just think it's a great step.

It honors the historical things that we love about our state, the beehive, the mountains, the red rocks, some of those kinds of things, but it also steps forward and it gives us a great marketing opportunity to say this is what the state is, this is where we're headed.

And I think it's--I think it's wonderful.

Jason Perry: It did not pass by a large enough margin to escape a potential referendum.

But, Ben, tell us how big of a deal this is for this to actually get going forward.

It will require this: 8% of the voters across 15 senate districts, so this is about-- this is what they'll need, 134,298 signatures by April 12.

Ben Winslow: May the odds be ever in your favor.

Referendums are tough.

Ballot initiatives are tough.

You got to get a lot of signatures, and you got to be out there hustling, and I don't know if the referendum backers have money that they're spending for paid signature gatherers or anything like that, but it's going to be a tough sell.

You know, I think what we'll see is the limits of, you know, where this goes, if it can get traction or if it just ultimately falls flat.

You know, you've got a little bit of time to get a lot of signatures, and the last time we saw this was with the tax referendum, and you had the support of grocery stores, you had the support of a lot of groups, the left and the right coming together because they hated this tax package.

You may not see that this time around.

You know, hard to say if they can do it.

Jason Perry: Holly, you talked to a lot of folks about this particular one.

Why is there division in terms of people you're talking to?

Holly Richardson: It's so interesting to me, because I would not have anticipated that there was quite so much division.

So, some people are saying that they're offended that somehow this new flag is a slam on early pioneer women, maybe, who created the first flag.

Well, this is not the second flag, this is the tenth flag, so we're not going back to the original, right?

But even when I was in the legislature a little bit more than a decade ago, we voted on a flag and changed where we put the year, right?

From the inside to the outside.

And so, anyway, it was really surprising to me that there were so many people who had such strong feelings about it, but they do tend to come from maybe further right people who are delegates within the Republican system.

And for some reason they have painted the sponsor as somebody who is pretty far left and has these ideas now that we're going to somehow overthrow our pioneer heritage, which simply isn't true, in my opinion.

Chris Bleak: There was a great witness that spoke in the House hearing on this issue.

He talked about, you know, the issues around creating a new flag, and it was too easy to draw and too simplistic.

And then he mentioned that this was actually the Canadian flag when they were changing it back in, I think, in the 1960s to the maple leaf and the red and white.

That's a very simple flag, but everybody that thinks of Canada now identifies Canada with that flag, and he was making the same, you know, argument that, yes, it was difficult then, people got all worked up, they said it was too simplistic, and now look how iconic it is.

And I think we can see something similar with the Utah State flag.

Jason Perry: Yeah, we'll watch this one closely, 40 days they have.

Ben, let's talk about the abortion bill that was passed.

We had a couple that were proposed, several of them had some connection to the abortion laws in the state, but this one ultimately did.

This is Representative Karianne Lisonbee.

Talk about this bill for a moment and what we see happening right now in terms of the layout in terms of abortions in the state of Utah.

Ben Winslow: Well, abortion clinics will have to close.

I believe it's by May of this year under the terms of this.

And abortions under the terms of Utah's laws, which is up to 18 weeks in cases of rape, incest, or health of the mother, will now be conducted in hospitals and medical clinics.

And that's what it does, and it basically is designed to sort of go hand in hand with the bill that Senator McCay passed last year, which was the near-total abortion ban.

Jason Perry: So interesting, so this--no more licensing after May, and then closing them down entirely beginning of 2024.

Significant impact on people in the state of Utah, Holly, in terms of, like, our hospitals right now, what they're able to do and not do to Ben's good point.

Holly Richardson: Yeah, I think one of the issues, right, that people have brought up is that it's significantly more expensive for the patient who is choosing that option or needs it medically or, you know, for whatever reason that the cost in the clinic right now can be somewhere around $2,500.

It's about ten times that in the hospital setting, so that can have a real impact as well.

And I think one of the reasons this bill moved forward this year really has got to be the overturn of Roe v. Wade, right?

And we're putting it back on the state level, and Utah has prided itself on being a pro-life state for many, many years.

And this just clarifies exactly what that means and where you can go.

Jason Perry: Chris, are we gonna see lawsuits on this one in the near future?

Chris Bleak: Well, Ben would know that better than I. I suspect that we will.

One of the things that I think is important to watch and concerns me, I mean, the state has always stuck to those three exceptions, and how those get implemented or how easy--I don't want to say easy, but are they able to be done?

I know that in the case of rape, somebody has to take the responsibility to make sure that a police report has been filed, some of these things, and I worry about that just because of the impact that that could have on the individual that has been already been a victim in this case and how that actually is implemented.

So, there's some components there that I think it's kind of wait to see how those actually operate.

Ben Winslow: And I think here on out, you can just expect any time it touches this subject and a few others on Capitol Hill, you can just expect a lawsuit every time the bill is signed.

Jason Perry: I'll talk about one more of those, Holly.

There were a couple of bills on transgender health this legislative session, one of them in particular, Senator Michael Kennedy from Alpine, bans gender-affirming surgery and puberty blockers in minors.

Talk about that for just a moment, the bill, and what we see happening next in those communities.

Holly Richardson: So, I think within the community is what you're seeing and what we're hearing is that they feel unwelcome, right?

That they're definitely--they already struggle with mental health issues, suicidal ideation is very high, and so as those bills move forward, right, that's where I think a whole entire community says, "I don't know that I even belong in this state anymore."

On the other side, you've got people saying people who are underage, under 18, don't have the ability yet to make those types of decisions.

The one thing that I would add is, unfortunately, one of the proposed amendments to that bill was to say there can be no cosmetic surgery for any minor, including breast implants and other nose jobs, for example, because if they can't make the decision on whether they want to be male or female, they also can't make the decision that they're going to alter what they were born with.

Jason Perry: So, Ben, we're already seeing people talk about the lawsuits in this particular bill.

Ben Winslow: Right, and that one sounds like it's already being drafted at this point.

ACLU National Center for Lesbian Rights has already threatened litigation over that, and again, this is another one of those subjects that I think anytime you see a bill on this, you can expect a lawsuit to follow it.

Jason Perry: We'll be following these bills closely, because as you started the show, these are consequential for sure in the state.

Chris, I think this is an interesting time to talk about vetoes.

You know, you were a chief of staff, I was a chief of staff.

You work with these elected officials.

The governor has the opportunity to either sign a bill, veto a bill, or let it go into signature without his signature if he prefers.

You see any bills being vetoed this session?

Chris Bleak: You know, I--two thoughts that I have.

I know, one, the governor is very pleased with this session and the significance, the way that the legislature operated.

They took issues seriously, they really worked on them.

I know that he's happy about that.

There are some things around social media and education funding that he was very engaged on.

He also threatened a couple of years ago that he would veto more bills, and I think it's harder to do in reality.

You know that as well as anyone, when you're actually up there and you've worked through some of those issues.

So, I suspect there will be a veto or two, but I don't--I don't know that it's even going to be a high profile issue.

There's some--there are some issues on the education front that I think are some possibilities, but he hasn't really indicated which of those bills are out there.

Maybe a Mike McKell bill that he can get, you know--in history-- Jason Perry: Brother-in-law-- tradition.

Chris Bleak: It's a tradition.

Yeah, I don't know which ones he's got high on his radar.

Doesn't seem like there are a number of-- a number of them right now.

Jason Perry: So, Holly is a former legislator too.

How does this play into--there is this--sometimes people say the governor needs to veto something just to kind of-- Holly Richardson: Yeah, no, I mean, I think he already--at the last night of the session he said there were several bills that he was looking at vetoing, but they were killed in the process, and so before they got to his desk; he's not going to need to veto.

I do want to mention one bill though that did pass and is not going to be vetoed.

In fact, it might already be signed, but that's the domestic violence bill from Senator Todd Weiler.

Jason Perry: Talk about that.

This was a big bill.

Holly Richardson: Yeah, this was a big bill.

And, in fact, I was listening to the lieutenant governor talk.

This bill was personal to her.

Her cousin was killed in a domestic violence incident in August of last year, and so she spent a lot of the interim going around and talking with all relevant agencies, police agencies, LEAs, those types of things.

But what this bill does will require a lethality assessment when police go out on a domestic violence call, and then there's a companion piece that will put it all in a database and look at those numbers.

Jason Perry: I think it's important enough that we talk about what a lethality-- Holly Richardson: A lethality assessment is basically a questionnaire.

There's three top ones where if you answer yes to any of those top three questions, that immediately it triggers a process to say, we're going to give you--first of all, we're going to tell you you're in danger, right?

If you answer yes, that he has a gun and has threatened homicide, you know, to kill you or to kill your kids, we're going to put you into some kind of a process where you can start accessing services within the community.

But there's also another one on strangulation.

It is--actually goes together with future homicide, domestic violence homicide, so that people don't realize that choking and being strangled, not even maybe necessarily to the point of passing out, actually is indicative of you're going to lose your life at some point.

And I think that that's super important.

What Utah had was kind of a piecemeal, so some departments used lethality assessments and some did not, but what this will say is all of Utah will use these assessments.

Jason Perry: And tracks it over time, so.

Holly Richardson: We're going to track it over time.

Jason Perry: So that if we have something in the future, we won't miss something happened previously.

Okay, very good.

Ben, I want to talk about education for just a moment in terms of what we might see coming forward when it comes to the scholarships that will be coming.

There was a time when there's a referendum on this very issue.

It seems like that's not the case this time.

This bill has passed, scholarships are put in place, it's tied to education funding; is this one just done?

Ben Winslow: At this point it seems like it is, because if you try to referendum, I don't think it actually--I think it passed with the referendum-proof, so that's not gonna happen.

Certainly teachers' unions have had a real problem with this idea of sort of a hostage situation, where you get this teacher's salary increase, but you also have this school choice scholarship program.

We're seeing that also play out with the tax discussions about the earmark and the income tax.

You get that with the sales tax on food.

So, you know, you have a real choice to make here.

But this salary thing was big.

But what we're seeing is a lot of these issues getting tied together by Capitol Hill, sort of presenting this choice that you have to make.

Jason Perry: Yeah, Chris, talk about the strategy there, because they are connected, right?

Teacher pay connected to these scholarships, food tax tied to the constitutional earmark for education.

Chris Bleak: Yeah, and I'm glad Ben mentioned that.

I mean, here we remove the sales tax on food and we haven't even really gotten to it.

I mean, that's how significant that number of issues they dealt with are.

You know, I don't have a problem with it, and the reason is this.

Legislating is not easy, and it does require trade-offs when you develop compromises, when you work through it.

Rarely if ever are issues simply black and white.

"Oh, I want that, I don't want that."

And so that binary nature is often presented by political pundits, lobbyists, consultants, others as "Oh, it's a good or it's a bad thing," and legislating is so much more difficult than that and intertwined.

And so, I think that it is appropriate for them to look at and say, look, we can remove sales tax on food, that's a general fund item, but in order to do that, we have to create some flexibility on the other side.

And so, is this something that's popular for something that's maybe a little bit more difficult?

Absolutely, but that's what legislating and lawmaking is all about is making those difficult decisions and those trade-offs.

And so, I think it's appropriate for the legislature to say to citizens, if you want X, we need Y, because that's what law making is all about.

Jason Perry: Go ahead, Holly, through the lens of a former legislator.

Holly Richardson: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree, and I think one of the things though that becomes an issue, especially as you put it out in the public, is it's easy to argue against one piece of it, right?

So, if you vote for HB 215, which was the bill that tied teacher salary increases with this scholarship, right?

It was the either/or.

You either love teachers or you love, you know, parents.

And, of course, nothing is that simplistic.

It's not really that simple.

I think it will be interesting to see how much effort is put into this--the bill on the taxes is actually gonna be on the 2024 ballot.

There's quite a while for people to talk about it, discuss it, and get it out there.

So, is removing the sales tax on food popular?

It sure is.

Is changing the constitution popular?

Probably less so, right?

So it depends on, I think, all the public relations campaign.

Ben Winslow: And it should be worth pointing out, the negotiations are still ongoing.

The proposed amendment passed out, but they have a year and a half to keep working on it.

You have an entire interim and another session where you can get this out there and finesse the language.

Utah Education Association at this point has taken no position on it.

That's not neutrality, that's not opposition, that's not support.

Other groups have jumped on board in support.

But what they're gonna do is they're going to take it to their members, their delegates in April, I believe, and, you know, talk about it, see where the temperature is.

Senate Majority Whip Ann Millner has said they'll keep negotiating, they'll keep talking, they can keep working on this idea of some trade-offs even within that proposed constitutional amendment, such as, first of all, the earmark remains, but there would be a funding formula tied to inflation and some other things there.

And then if all of that is taken care of, then the state can dip in for other needs, that's the deal, at least as it's presented now.

That could still change in the next year and a half.

Jason Perry: We'll watch it closely.

We got a legislative session between now and then.

A lot can happen on that particular piece of legislation.

Can we spend the last couple minutes here talking about this national stage?

It's a little about what's happening in politics as we get ready for that next election cycle.

And Senator Mitt Romney got involved with a couple of conversations with Tucker Carlson this week about what happened on January 6, and I want to show a clip, and then maybe we'll start with you, Chris, to talk about why Mitt Romney is weighing in in this particular way and why Utah is even part of this discussion.

Let's show this clip.

Mitt Romney: There's no question that the January 6 was a riot, a--an insurrection attempt, an effort to overturn the process designed in the constitution to allow the voice of the people to be carried out in who we have as our elected representatives.

It was an outrageous act, a lot of people were injured, our building was severely damaged, and efforts to try and pretend it was something other than that are despicable and frankly dangerous because it makes it more likely that people will think things like this are acceptable and they might try and do them in the future.

It's simply--it's awful what some people are willing to do to get some eyeballs so you get a little extra money.

Jason Perry: Chris, comment about this statement from Senator Romney.

Chris Bleak: Well, I think Senator Romney stands as kind of a moral conscience on a number of these issues, and I'm proud of him for doing it.

I think it's important that he does.

It is--I think there is an effort to whitewash a number of these issues and try to look at it through a different lens, and I do think it is dangerous.

And so, I think it's good that the state of Utah stands in opposition to that through our elected representatives, and we should analyze and see--make sure that these types of things can't happen again in the future.

Jason Perry: Just go and give us this perspective, Holly.

Holly Richardson: I, you know, I just think it's so interesting, because it wasn't actually that long ago, and now--we could see it live streamed as it was happening, right?

And now we're being told, well, you didn't really see what it was, it really was mild, it really was people just, you know, milling around, and it really was not that.

And I do appreciate Mitt Romney standing up and calling it for what it is.

Jason Perry: Our last 20 seconds, Ben, Utah seems to be a go-to place, people on the national stage looking for leadership on these particular sorts of positions.

Ben Winslow: Mitt speaks his mind, that's kind of how it is, is what he's definitely created.

And Senator Lee, to another extent, speaks his mind as well.

Jason Perry: They both do.

And thank you all for speaking yours this evening as well.

We appreciate it.

And thank you for watching "The Hinckley Report."

This show is also available as a podcast on PBSUtah.org/HinckleyReport or wherever you get your podcasts.

Thank you for being with us.

We'll see you next week.

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